In the News: Would a 4-Day Work Week Work for Your Business?

[Pesso]

Hey Newsies,

Today we’re looking at an article from Inc. reporting on the potential benefits of shifting to a 4-day work week for small businesses. I’d love to hear your experiences on this!

Inc.: These Small Businesses Adopted 4-Day Work Weeks. Here’s What they Learned

There’s been a lot of talk in the last few years about shifting to a 4-Day Work Week (4DWW). While the majority of this conversation has been around traditional office jobs, the article explains that shifting to a 4-day work week can have big benefits for small businesses too. 

The article cites some case studies of small businesses who have implemented it, and the biggest benefits are around increasing productivity, much as it is for more traditional jobs. Burnout has a real cost to businesses of all sizes, and affects not only us as business owners and managers, but also our employees. Shifting to a 4DWW can give ourselves and our employees more time to rest each week, so they’re more energized when they come back to work. 

Personally, I love the idea of a national shift to a 4-day work week. When I ran my shop, both my dad and I were able to adjust our own personal schedule to only be there 4 days a week, except during extremely busy times. 

Our business was open 7 days a week, 10+ hours each day, split into two main shifts. Our employees were all seasonal and part-time, paid hourly, and most of them only worked 4-5 days a week, about 6 hours per shift. We consciously made that decision to limit them to only 4 or 5 days because we saw that when they worked 5-6 days a week, they were more tired and less productive when they were on shift. Overall it led to happier employees who could enjoy their time off and be more engaged while they worked.

If we were to stick to a strict 4 day week, we would probably have had to hire additional employees. But since they were paid hourly, the total cost to the business would probably stay about the same, except for some additional initial training time to pay for. 

What’s your perspective:

• Would shifting to a 4-day work week lead to any additional costs for your business?

• Would the benefits for a 4-day work week be worth it for your business?

• Have you, or would you try this out?

Can’t wait to hear your thoughts!
Pesso

This article is for informational purposes and does not constitute legal advice. For guidance or advice specific to your business, you should consult with a qualified legal professional.

[DLRosenberg]

we used to close 2x a week- now we are open 7 days.. I can't see that working for us at all. We already don't get what we need done in a day done LOL

[maxpete]

Because I am curious, what would need to happen in order to go back to your original schedule of being closed 2x per week?

[Pesso]

Thanks for sharing, @DLRosenberg !

I totally feel that. There is always more work to do and never enough time to do it!

I asked it below to Deanna -- what kinds of tasks do you not have time to get done? What systems can you put into place to save some of that work? Does hiring out / delegating make sense for any of those?

[MudFire_Deanna]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry - I have a 7 day work week - we are closed Tuesdays but that is a personal work day for me.  Sometimes I work 7.5 if things go poorly (* yes that is a joke) - but my staff (mostly Gen Z) have an 8 hour shift split into 2 - 4 hour shifts on 2 different day and then teach a maximum of 12 hours a week that they schedule independently with an additional 6 hours of tasks related to teaching - like finishing pots, emailing their clients, etc. They are all small business owners and most really struggle to get past 30 hours including the time above and the time they put into the work they sell and those who are putting in more time really seem to resent it a lot of the time. I find it hard to relate because I have always been so excited and frankly honored that I own a business that is successful and I am one of those types that has to be told to stop working. If I weren't working for myself would I want a 4 day work week - maybe? But I'd want the days to be 10 hours for sure 😉

I think it represents a generational cultural shift. I spend a lot of time reading, researching, trying to create positive social culture and connections between them, and still this persists. Since Covid closures - I have seen a marked difference in my staff's ability to engage in conflict resolution and in holding teammates accountable.  Sometimes they endure mistakes that are detrimental to the team instead of making a correction with a shift mate because they fear the friendship to be in danger if they do. I read a very interesting article yesterday actually - one that might make a good thread @Pesso @maxpete https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/healthcare/our-insights/addressing-the-unprecedented-behavioral-... -. It was talking about generational differences in mental health and even physical exhaustion. I find myself regularly doing tasks here alongside people that are 20-30 years younger than me - and telling me their bodies are tired. I go home wondering how that's possible, but I do want to figure out the 'why' and what we can do to help our team move through these feelings. I found this article and many subsequent links within it to be a good, deep dive.

***Our business is open 57 hours a week - mostly to accommodate being open outside of the work schedules of others 🙂

[maxpete]

Really great call out on how this may be different for business owners vs. employees. Also, the cultural shift as well, I can see that too. It's definitely something that has been a big discussion point for younger millennials and gen z and I'm very curious to see how this plays out in future generations. 

Appreciate you sharing this article and your perspective on this too!

[MudFire_Deanna]

The article was a good read and linked out to another about how younger generations are more apt to describe a workplace as toxic and the difficulty for business owners to figure out what to change to have a "fix" and how there may not be a fix because the answers aren't in the actual workplace but are centered in this idea of mental health challenges and outlook for the future. It posited that many business owners (myself included) can't relate sometimes and believe that the way out is training on adaptability and resiliency but that hasn't proven to work either. It gave 9 tips that we are mostly doing - relating to community building that were great actions to take in business. Maybe I'll make a post about those for discussion 🙂  I know that we have faced this issue and the cognitive dissonance that come up when thinking of the perks we are giving (free business classes, studio space, a key to the building, peer workspace that is private, supplies on site, opportunity for extra income in teaching that is entirely flexible) in exchange for working 8 hrs a week (shifts are also paid). 

[maxpete]

Definitely a good read! This is all super fascinating. 

Oh, I would love to read that post if you end up writing one! Maybe even a future blog post 👀

[Pesso]

I love this, @MudFire_Deanna ! I'd love to read that post too! Thanks again for always being interested in learning and improving and sharing!

[Pesso]

Thanks for sharing, @MudFire_Deanna !

I totally get where you're coming from. That excitement of being a business owner and seeing all of the fun things we can do to improve things, and running on that adrenaline and not caring how long and how late we work. I've absolutely been there and felt that and done that. But I've also gotten severely burnt out as a result, and it was part of the reason we ended up selling the business. We worked so much in the business that we just started getting resentful and hated all of the things we had to do all of the time.

What tasks and things keep you working 7 days a week? Can you put systems into place to automate or obsolete-ize some of them? Can you hire out or delegate any of them?

I started reading The E-Myth Revisited for our book club, and it talks about the 3 roles that each business has, and often the owner is all 3. The Technician (who does the actual work in the business), The Manager (who creates order and process for the work), and The Entrepreneur (who sets the vision for what the business does and is going). He author talks about the big problem most businesses face being that owners can spend too much time as Technicians working in their business, and not delegate and hire out, either not doing enough Manager and Entrepreneur work, or just trying to do all three and get burned out. 

This might be a little controversial, and I really hope you and others don't take it the wrong way, and is meant not just towards you but to everyone, including myself:

What if the new generation have it right about work? What if it is actually better to not work so much, and stop when their bodies feel tired? What if we're just not meant to work more than 30 hours a week? What if working 7 days a week is just going to lead to burnout and frustration and animosity towards the business? What if that excitement we're feeling is more just adrenaline and duty and obligation than actually true excitement? What if hiring out some of the tasks that keep us working 7 days a week, and then enabling us to take a couple of days off each week, would lead to even more excitement about the business? 

----

Very very good point about the conflict resolution and accountability issues. I've absolutely seen, and sometimes even myself felt, not wanting to correct coworkers for worry about if they would feel it as a slight against them. We did a workshop around Radical Candor (and I've been trying to get it as a Book Club book but people haven't been voting for it) and that really helped me a lot -- maybe it can help your team too! And thanks for sharing that article!

Rooting for ya in all of the ways and always happy to keep the conversation going!

[MudFire_Deanna]

Lol - not offended at all. People regularly joke with me about how much I love to work 😂 ✨

We also did a workshop around Radical Candor which resonated a lot for me - I would vote for it!!! I am a very direct person and often feel that the most 'kind' answer isn't always the most 'nice' answer. I thought it was amazing but the exercises we did onsite with the workbook didn't resonate as well with participants here that were younger. They still seem to prioritize friendship in most interactions even with the understanding that not correcting someone can lead to them making a future mistake again.

I don't require anything above 8 hours to be on staff here, teaching is by want and is scheduled independently or not at all, and selling of their own work is self-directed under guidance with the perks they are receiving. We've found that we can manage our desired schedule by having a staff of 18-20 who work 8 hours a week - and are scheduling teaching to their economic goals.

If I am speaking honestly - I am still energized by the work - and really always have been. I know I might be a rare bird but I prefer being really hands on and rarely feel burnout (the only recent time was during Daphne's illness) and that was balancing remote work and living in a hospital. I do find that I am fulfilling the roles above in some part - but there is a lot of delegation now. We've considered a manager insofar as opening a second space because I can't double my efforts nor can Daphne.

I do experience frustration, irritation, and hatred of certain things, and being tired physically. I do hold empathy and understanding for those who do experience burnout. Like anyone else I enjoy an afternoon on the patio with a margarita, dinner with friends, a vacation here and there 🌟 I think I have an easier time with grounding and starting each day with what is possible. I don't sleep overnight here anymore or work past midnight. Boundary shifts have been small but meaningful and I do take time for joy and love of things outside of work. There are definitely weeks where I feel more comfortable personally to do a 5 day work week but the 7 day work weeks happen when something is going on that is a fix for me (see also resident repair technician for kilns and wheels) and this week's adventure - being onsite to manage a team of plumbers replacing our main water line because the one encased in concrete in 1963 bit the dust. 

I recently conversed with a friend closing her second location after 8 years. She said - I get asked all the time - what advice do you have for starting a small business - and she replied - DON'T. She went on to elaborate - don't if you want the first 10 years to include all of the things in life that you see folx with corporate work doing - PTO, vacations, work/life balance. She said you have to be aware that unless you are starting with very deep pockets (being able to hire out the gate) you are paying with those first 10 years. She regretted opening the second location when her first began to easily run itself and I found the conversation very resonant.

I think corporate jobs that are salaried can easily be 4 - 10 hour days - or maybe possibly 32 hour weeks if CEO pay is reduced. Wage equalization would be possible easily if a board would vote to support workers and not just the C-suite. For small business I think this is very difficult. And for someone working independently who wants to work outside of a corporate structure I think there is still a very valid entrepreneurial work week of 60 hours. To create something and get it off the ground for a while at least you are doing all of the jobs - you are the marketing team, creator, hr, labor, social manager, graphic designer, etc. 

Here's the conundrum though - how do we as a society support those working for themselves or in industries where a live-able wage is not payable on a 32 hour work week like in food and other service jobs, unskilled labor, etc. To me the idea of a 32 hour work week is separating labor by class - like someone working in tech is worth more as a human and is entitled to that time but someone working more than one job or in a labor based positions may need to work two jobs to make ends meet working double that.

So much conversation right now involves the affordability of homes, groceries, etc - I find that my mentees in the business incubator here are telling me they want a salary of $6k a month after taxes to afford what they want and to live on their own but that means a salary of upwards of $60 an hour if you are working only 30 hours a week, which most small businesses can't pay nor can these artists pay themselves that and if we paid would cause us to close off our offerings to most of the community we serve. Our diversity of membership and event attendance is crucial to our community. We offer around $35 an hour plus tips (up from $25 a few years ago), but they can't earn that just starting out selling their work nor working in another gig type job or in food service etc...so I think unfortunately the rhetoric around the 32 hour work week isn't well supported in what they can earn exiting college and entering predominantly service industry jobs while starting their own businesses.

[Pesso]

Haha, ok great! I've also been joked with in a similar way -- I love work! 

Thank you for sharing sooo much here, @MudFire_Deanna !

I had just about given up on Radical Candor winning, but I think you've encouraged me to put it back into the rotation, haha. Yes! I've been very guilty of "Ruinous Empathy" in some of my work, and been working hard to not do that. 

I love that you're so flexible on teaching, that they're self monitoring and assigning how much to work, and that it's fitting into a system that works both for them and for y'all. 

That's so wonderful that you're still energized by the work and that you're not really prone to burnout. Super jealous of you there! Would you consider a manger for your current space too, or no since you'll continue to handle the operations? 

I'm glad that you've set those boundaries and getting more time away from the business. Yea, the busy times will always happen, and things will ALWAYS go wrong, so it's great that you're taking the short weeks when you can. 

Such good points that your friend's example brings up, very in line with the E-Myth book! Hopefully it can be less than 10 years though to figure that out and work through it and establish something where one's role is what they want. It's really sad to hear that so many folks have that experience and that regret. 

I absolutely love all of these callouts and the way you're thinking about the economy as a whole. There are so many far reaching effects of wages and working models, and so little equity across different labor types. I am absolutely so privileged as a tech knowledge worker, and do feel very conflicted about it because of the vastly different treatment and pay for workers like me vs labor positions. 

I feel a lot of empathy there -- everyone should be able to live comfortably like that, but it's absolutely not feasible for small businesses barely surviving to afford to pay folks that well. It shouldn't be that way, and I wish our whole economy and society were different. 

Y'all are doing so much to support artists in so many ways, and it's absolutely inspiring to see. Thank you for all you do!

And thank you for bringing up these really important points and bringing the conversation in this direction! Love having you in the Community!

[CareyJo]

No offense @Pesso but I'm pretty sure I can guess your age, especially since I've seen your face and know you worked with your dad and just by @MudFire_Deanna's descriptions in her posts, I can guess her age as well.  Pesso you have a great work ethic, wonderful experience and I applaud you and your efforts, so please know I'm not picking on you.  It's just that she and I are in the same generation and see the same struggles.  What I wanted to comment on was her comment about how Gen Z people 'want' 6k a month to survive.  Key word here is WANT.  They don't NEED it.  They WANT it so that they can do/have all of the things that they think they are ENTITLED to that they haven't yet earned through years of wisdom and perseverance.  Not trying to pick on anyone in Gen Z just simply stating facts that I'm aware of.  Our oldest child is 34 and the youngest 23.  We've seen it all!  I don't believe that they are actually physically tired, I believe that it's a lack of work ethic.  They want something for nothing.  They want a paycheck on a silver platter that they don't actually have to work for.  We see it everywhere here.  It doesn't really matter if it is pre or post Covid.  It's still the same.  Our 23 year-old hates his generation because they have no work ethic. 

There is a lot to be said for my generation and how we were raised by Boomers.  We were taught to WORK.  Doesn't necessarily mean that we have to overwork ourselves but we were taught what it means to work and to value it to put food on the table.  My husband and I still call 20+ 'kids' because to us they are, they live in a disposable world.  If it breaks, I buy a new one.  They have no sense of value that you fix things when they're broken and that you work for a living.  We've actually had a lot of conversation about this privately and with our kids.  Being that there's such an age gap between our kids, when our youngest was in high school, I was the oldest parent active in school.  The other parents were barely a generation older than my oldest kids.  I paid attention to what they were doing as parents.  They were too laxed in things, allowing too much leeway in their kids' lives.  So I had to ask myself, why?  Where did that come from?  I think that part of it came from those in my generation who had kids much later in life instead of right out of high school or college, like most of us did.  The world began to change at a quick pace in the 90's and so did raising kids.  It affected that in-between generation of parents who now use 'gentle parenting'.  They didn't teach their kids the same work ethic that we grew up with and we are now paying for it two decades later.

I think it's awesome that @MudFire_Deanna wants to solve problems for them within her business and improve her work environment for these 'kids', and I think some of it is valid, but moreover, I feel they need some harsh realities.  They need to learn what it means to work for a living, earn what they're getting and how to make more of it and become successful at what they're doing ON THEIR OWN before beginning to acquire all of the things they WANT and don't NEED to survive.  They've got it backwards.  Success isn't about what you own or have, it's about how well you're doing and what you did to get there.  Success isn't determined by the size of your bank account, the price tag on your car or the clothes in your closet.  Millennials and Gen Z haven't learned this and if us Gen Xer's and Boomers don't start teaching it to them, they won't learn.  

Okay... of my soapbox.

[MudFire_Deanna]

Lol - @CareyJo age 48 in the house 😂😉 so you called it. The gentle parenting thing really made me laugh - I truly think the Radical Candor workshop here at the studio failed because directness is 'mean' and criticism is termed 'spicy'. I'd love to try it again though - I think there is something to the method to teach accountability and responsibility and increase buy-in for teammates to give each other feedback. 

Not being a parent, and being LGBTQ+ (I use they/them), I think I'm the bridge between you and Pesso in this convo, because I think I have had an abstracted or truncated viewpoint based on my interaction 'age' with younger folks - mostly after the age of 21 and not having interacted with educational spaces or other parents much if at all. I'm interacting with them as a fellow maker, mentor, and owner of the ceramic space they work in. I have the luxury of a tiny bit of 'cool factor' so for an older person I sometimes skate by in a peer to peer space conversationally with my team - my age in person is often perceived as younger than 48. I think those talks are one of the things that give me empathy for the insecurity and mental health issues my team shares with me. That doesn't mean I don't get frustrated or constantly question whether I am too direct in our interactions or if I am a cause of their cognitive dissonance. Managing a team that is so much younger is difficult and requires constant research and learning on my part @Pesso thank you for recognizing that.

I genuinely want for them the world I had where I wasn't bombarded with social media until way after college. I think our generation can't really understand or relate to their world of being blasted by the minute with things to 'want/need' and a culture of influencers who are perceived to not be working and open gift boxes all day. They imagine a world of not working that also has money because they see those posts all day every day. They were given a lot, didn't have a lot of independence (certainly not a latchkey generation) and haven't fully developed their ethos yet. Compounded effects of mental health and wellness advertising and thousands of accounts that push the idea that feeling any discomfort is toxic or painful can cause them to feel bad about themselves most of the time. I've done exercises with my team involving wellness activities and have asked them how long they can feel the positive effect of a meditation, or a massage, a walk by the sea, etc. They frequently mention that positive effects don't last long for them - sometimes minutes - or that the social sphere is so distracting that it takes attention from other things they find joy in. It doesn't create a healthy headspace for them to make their own mistakes and have those harsh realities.

Also, you are right Carey Jo - I didn't have a support system and was economically on my own at age 18 - I visited my family but was no longer their financial worry when I started college. In contrast, my team 100% have parents that can and do bail them out. I have a 28 year old staffer whose car needed work this week and her dad took care of the mechanic, payments, communication with the shop - she never even had to pay or set up a rental car or anything because she borrowed a family car but she still spent the majority of the week telling everyone who would listen that her car was in the shop...As I was typing this response a 26 year old came to my desk after filling out new employment paperwork and said - I blew out my early 20s being productive and working and having money and now my body is tired and I can't even work a part time job - and I don't know what future I'm working for anyway and that the only place they liked working was here (but it is like I said only 8hrs....a week).

Some days I'm ready to scream or dwell on the differences between our generations - and some days I research until I find a nugget that I hadn't considered and find a tether back to common ground. I tell my team honestly that I truly believe that getting a business started requires more than a 4 day *or 30 hr as my team describes it* - work week. Once your business is up and running at a pace you can maintain - it is for each person to decide what that means for them and how much time they want to commit. I am enjoying this conversation and the variety of perspectives by age, type of business, etc. 

So, I will push forward - keep reading, keep talking, and keep trying 🙂 - what else is there to do? I hope I can model the enthusiasm needed to be a small business owner. I hope to inspire those around me to set goals they can achieve. 

[CareyJo]

It literally befuddles me how they can be so narrow minded with the world at their fingertips!  They have everything, everywhere, all at once, in their faces 24/7 yet they still lack what they can only get with age - wisdom. Which is a good thing.  Yet conversely, they act as if they know it all and are so old already lol... this is why my husband and I look at them as kids.  It helps us to remember that they are still very green and wet behind the ears... it gives me perspective when I'm working with someone in that age group so that I just don't annihilate them when their stupidity makes me crazy.  It helps me to remember to just stop, listen and not give advice unless asked because they're going to go and do whatever they think is best and hopefully learn for themselves and come back and say "you were right".  Social media is literally controlling their life patterns and therefore it becomes fact in their mind.  They need someone to look them straight in the face and say "you're not tired" and "you're an adult, you do it" but like you said, they cannot handle any criticism, so they turn into Pauly Shore in Son-in-Law, like a little puddle on the floor - "you hurt me".  They don't realize that they need to retrain their brains.

You are definitely in the gap - I've got about 10 years on you but I can relate.  Not only do I mentally still feel about 45, our brother and sister in law, my sister and all of our closest friends are almost or just hitting 50, so I'm the oldest.  I think that not only are you doing a great thing - trying to relate to them while helping them, but you're doing the right thing.  You're guiding them without telling them they are clueless to the real world and giving them a safe space to learn.  It's really sad though, how many of these kids cannot do things for themselves because they don't know how.  They are lucky to have a kind and caring person who's willing to allow them to do what they're doing.  But don't let them take advantage of you - they're already doing that to their parents and literally don't care.

When one of our daughters was a soph in college, she came across a meme on FB that had a list of about 10 things that every 18 year-old student should know how to do.  She knew all but one of them, though I don't remember which one.  But her comment was that she was lucky her mom taught her all of those things during her high school years so that when she left for college she could be a fully functioning adult.  I don't get why we allowed that to change.  I would think that those parents who are still parenting their 20 something children are now kicking themselves for not raising their kids to be adults.  It's got to be driving them nuts.  Until kids are about ready to graduate high school, you cannot be friends, you have to be a parent.  You can be friends after high school.  I always said, I'd rather have my kids hate me at home and have them be kind, productive adults in society then to worry about whether or not they like me.

Keep sharing what you're learning - we can all benefit.

[phillipsrw]

Hi @CareyJo you must be operating the levers in my brain there, as what you said is exactly what I'm thinking. It's a tough challenging world out there, but Its all about the enabling process and the guidance given during this process. For many this is the point where things fall apart, and unfortunately it then cascades down through the generations.

[CareyJo]

Yes!  And WHERE did that point occur?!?  How/why/when did we, as the older generation, fail these younger people?  Us folks who grew up in the 70's and 80's were bred to suck it up and we taught that to our kids... so how did the shift happen?!?  It just boggles my mind!  My 34 year old kids are learning gentle parenting now, all the while telling their kids that they are strong and can do anything.  Well... if you gentle parent them, you're not making them strong.  They praise us for being strong parents who taught THEM how to survive yet their making our grandkids weak 🙄

[isabelle]

THIS IS A GREAT QUESTION! Curious - @BlackAngelDsgns @vinesandrushes @Donnie-M @londontea @Tamyra_Paunchy @MichiganFarmsta @sugarlab @timberhillwine @JUYBoutique20 @Sam_400º @makedonas @Minion would this ever be possible with your biz model? How many employees would you have to hire to make this possible? 

[makedonas]

not only the amount employees needed, but also their work capability and how well organized their personal lives are. 
i actually try not to schedule ppl more than 4 shifts, unless I see they can be consistent. 
i keep telling them that I’m continually looking for reasons to give them raises. 
Don't give me reasons not to 🤦🏻‍♂️

PS. Besides being Greek, I’m in the Show-Me State 💪🏼

[Pesso]

Thanks for sharing, @makedonas !

That's a really good point -- what do you look for in deciding to give more than 4 shifts? What does consistency look like to you?

[makedonas]

Being dependable, consistently on time or early. 
Being able to comfortably and accurately handle the work load. 
Being a consistent team player. 
Not bringing personal stuff to work or letting it affect you and of course others.